On Being

Program Particulars
*Times indicated refer to Web version of audio

(00:21) Separation of Church and State
For a more in-depth discussion about this topic, listen to our 2004 program with Phillip Hamburger in "Religious Liberty in America: The Legacy of Church and State."

(02:13–04:10) Music Element
"The Multiples of One"
from Awakening,
performed by Joseph Curiale

(02:54) Waldman's Article about Moral Values Debate
During the 2006 U.S. election campaign, Steven Waldman wrote an article for his On Belief column titled "Perverted, God-Hating Frenchies vs. Inbred, Sex-Obsessed Yokels." He discusses why liberals and conservatives fundamentally misunderstand each other, especially on the "moral values" debate, which he talks about the moral values debate in our previous show The Future of Moral Values.

(04:11–05:46) Music Element
"Concerto in due tempi (Piano Concerto: Menuetto)"
from Joseph Haydn: String Quartets, Op. 55,
performed by Jennifer Ward Clarke, Salomon String Quartet, Peter Holman, Trevor Jones, Micaela Comberti, et al.

(06:38) Mary Dyer, Quaker
Mary Dyer (c. 1600-1660) was a wife and mother of six children in Boston when she started attending controversial Sunday meetings held by Anne Hutchinson, who believed that people don't need churches to have a relationship with God. When Hutchinson was banished for her unorthodox views, Dyer left the colony with her family and traveled to England. There she became a Quaker and eventually decided to return to the United States to become a Quaker missionary.

Prior to her return, the Holy Commonwealth of Massachusetts passed laws banishing all Quakers from the colony. Quakers who refused to leave could be imprisoned, whipped, dragged from town to town, branded, have their ears removed, and executed. Dyer was twice imprisoned while in Boston and witnessed her friends' executions. She was told that if she returned to Massachusetts she would be put to death, but she returned anyway. She was hanged on June 1, 1660. When asked to repent, she said, "I do only what the Lord God requires of me. Do not mourn of my passing, for I am filled with happiness." She was the only woman put to death under the colony's anti-Quaker laws. Her martyrdom helped build support for the repeal of those laws.

(9:41) Deists
Deism was a religious philosophy that originated with Edward Herbert in 1624. In De Veritate, the English author stated that there were five "God-given," innate religious beliefs that all human beings share. The value of those beliefs, he argued, can be determined by reason, without the aid of spiritual revelation. These five beliefs consisted of the belief in a Supreme Being, the necessity of worship, the pursuit of an ethical life, the importance of repentance for sins, and the existence of an afterlife that would punish the wicked and reward the righteous. Herbert believed that different religious groups should tolerate each other as long as they shared these five basic beliefs.

While Herbert believed in religious tolerance, his ideas influenced a generation of Enlightenment philosophers. They argued that only the most basic religious beliefs were valuable, and all other aspects of elaborate religious worship were superfluous. These Deist writers were disturbed by what they saw as the excesses of the Roman Catholic Church and the High Church of England as well as the fanaticism of many Protestant dissenters.

By the late 18th century, Deism was the dominant religious belief among intellectuals, most noticeably in the United States. But there never was any unifying doctrine of Deism. Some Deists came to believe in God simply as a creator of the natural laws of the universe who did not intervene in the affairs of men. Others believed in a more active God. And some believed that Christianity was the best of all possible religions. Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams were all variously influenced by Deist ideas. All of them questioned the divinity of Jesus and the literal truth of the Bible, and each of them believed in a fairly personal God.

(11:08) The Modern Use of "Evangelicals"
Waldman equates the contemporary term "evangelicals" with 18th- and 19th-century groups including Baptists, some Presbyterians, and non-denominational Christians who engaged in the religious revival known as the Great Awakening. These religious groups did not call themselves evangelicals, but are considered the theological forefathers of the Evangelical Christians of today. They maintained a focus on personal salvation, a direct relationship with God, charismatic leadership, and bringing new converts to the congregation.

(12:24–14:01) Music Element
"Sonata No. 2 in A Major for Violin and Piano"
from Bach: Sonatas for Violin and Harpischord,
performed by Giuliano Carmignola, Andrea Marcon

(14:11) Patrick Henry
Patrick Henry (1736-1799) was independent Virginia's first governor who is best known for his "Give me liberty or give me death" line from a speech supporting independence from Great Britain in 1775. Henry had already served as governor of Virginia and was the most popular figure in the state when, in 1784, he proposed a plan to tax Virginians to fund Christian churches, many of which had been damaged in the war. He didn't distinguish between denominations but thought that all Christian houses of worship deserved government funding. The proposal had wide support until James Madison spoke out against it.

Madison argued that once government became involved in supporting religion with tax dollars it wouldn't be long before government would begin meddling in theological matters. In his pamphlet "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" Madison wrote, "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." Madison was arguing that government support of religion harmed religion. He managed to defeat the measure, and Henry never forgave him for it.

(15:58) Madison's Support of the Bill of Rights
The newly enacted U.S. Constitution of 1787 lacked a Bill of Rights. George Mason, who helped draft Virginia's "Declaration of Rights," refused to sign the new U.S. Constitution precisely because it lacked any enumeration of individual rights. James Madison opposed that enumeration of rights because he thought other states might refuse to ratify the Constitution if it included those rights. Though he supported religious liberty, he feared that a debate on the subject could actually result in less liberty, not more. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote, "There is great reason to fear that a positive declaration of some of the most essential rights could not be obtained in the requisite latitude. I am sure that the right of Conscience in particular, if submitted to public definition, would be narrowed much more than they are likely ever to be by an assumed power." In other words, as Waldman writes, "Being vague … might better protect religious freedom than would being explicit."

(16:13) Madison's "Read My Lips" Pledge
When Madison realized that he needed the backing of the growing Baptist community to get elected to Congress, he reversed his position about the Bill of Rights and decided to support it. On January 2, 1789, Madison wrote to Reverend George Eve of the Blue Run Church in Orange County, Virginia. Madison knew that the letter would become public. It was his way of announcing that he had become a Bill of Rights supporter.

It is my sincere opinion that the Constitution ought to be revised, and that the first Congress … ought to prepare and recommend to the States for ratification the most satisfactory provisions for all essential rights, particularly the rights of Conscience in the fullest latitude, the freedom of the press, trials by jury, security against general warrants & c."

After he won his election, Madison introduced his proposed 12 amendments to the Constitution on June 8, 1789. The 10 that were adopted became the Bill of Rights.

(16:57) Jefferson's Fury
Thomas Jefferson's (1743-1826) theological views were strongly influenced by the Enlightenment philosopher and chemist Joseph Priestley, who wrote a book called The History of the Corruptions of Christianity. In the 1782 tome, Priestley argued that Jesus was a great man but all the stories of his divinity were inventions (Priestley also invented soda water). Thirty-seven years later, Jefferson wrote a letter to his younger friend William Short, describing Joseph Priestley's ideas. Of Jesus, Jefferson wrote:

Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by it's lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dung hill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man's outlines which it is lamentable he did not live to fill up. Epictetus and Epicurus give laws for governing ourselves, Jesus a supplement of the duties and charities we owe to others. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent moralist, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects, unauthorized by a single word ever uttered by him, is a most desirable object, and one to which Priestley has successfully devoted his labors and learning. It would in time, it is to be hoped, effect a quiet euthanasia of the heresies of bigotry and fanaticism which have so long triumphed over human reason, and so generally and deeply afflicted mankind; but this work is to be begun by winnowing the grain from the chaff of the historians of his life.

(22:13–22:32) Music Element
"Quartet No. 2 In F Minor (The Razor): Allegro"
from Joseph Haydn: String Quartets, Op. 55,
performed by Jennifer Ward Clarke, Salomon String Quartet, Peter Holman, Trevor Jones, Micaela Comberti, et al.

(23:18) Washington's Use of Religious Language
George Washington is renowned for his use of religious language in his speeches and writings. For example, he wrote in his Thanksgiving Proclamation, delivered on October 3, 1789:

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and
Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

(25:22–26:35) Music Element
"Courante II"
from Lute Music for Witches and Alchemists,
Lutz Kirchhof

(25:35) Reading from Steven Waldman's Book
The following reading is excerpted from Waldman's book, Founding Faith: Providence, Politics, and the Birth of Religious Freedom in America:

Is it, therefore, useless to study the Founding Fathers? Not at all — if we know how to use them properly. It's time we stopped using the Founders as historical conversation stoppers — as in I'm right and you can tell, because the Founding Fathers agree with me. Instead, we must pick up the argument that they began and do as they instructed — use our reason to determine our views. The mind, as Jefferson reminded us, is the only oracle God gave us. Jefferson wanted people less dependent on the Bible; I would extend the idea, and urge us to be less dependent on Jefferson. Many modern church-state questions fall into a constitutional gray zone, and squinting at the founding documents with greater intensity will not change that.

We need to ask a different question — not Are these practices constitutional? But Are they wise?

(26:37–29:37) Music Element
"Liberty"
from American Sampler,
Ed Sweeney

(33:51) Martin Marty
Martin Marty taught the history of Christianity at the University of Chicago until his retirement in 1998. He is the author of more than 50 books. He spoke to Krista on our previous show, America's Changing Religious Landscape.

(34:04) The Wall of Separation
This phrase comes from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote on January 1, 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, a coalition of Baptist churches in Connecticut. The Baptists had written to congratulate Jefferson on his election as president, because they supported his views on religious liberty. He responded, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

His letter was later published in a newspaper, and then began to appear in collections of his writings, and in the mid-20th century, the phrase "wall of separation between Church & State" appeared in several Supreme Court decisions, notably McCollum v. Board of Education (1948), which ruled against religious instruction in schools. Legal scholars continue to argue about whether it made sense to rely on Jefferson's metaphor as a way of understanding the religion clause of the First Amendment. In 1998, the Library of Congress and the FBI conducted a forensic analysis of the original draft Jefferson wrote to the Baptists to uncover numerous passages that he had scratched out. Investigations revealed that Jefferson had labored over the political implications of the letter, and that he originally wanted to explain why he was not in favor of religious proclamations as president. But he chose to omit the material from the final letter.

(36:23–37:12) Music Element
"Quartet No. 2 In F Minor (The Razor): Finale: Presto"
from Joseph Haydn: String Quartets, Op. 55,
performed by Jennifer Ward Clarke, Salomon String Quartet, Peter Holman, Trevor Jones, Micaela Comberti, et al.

(37:34) Isaac Backus
Isaac Backus (1724-1806) was a Baptist minister in Massachusetts who led an effort to fight for more religious liberty. He grew up under Massachusetts laws that forced Baptists to pay taxes to support local traditional churches, even if the Baptists did not attend those churches. Backus' mother, brother, and uncle all spent time in jail for refusing to pay the taxes. Massachusetts law also required that all infants be baptized, despite contradicting tenets of Baptist belief holding that only believers should be baptized (not to mention the belief of non-Christians). In the years leading up to the Revolutionary War, Backus began to argue to his non-Baptist countrymen that if they really believed in freedom, they should believe in religious freedom as well. He wrote, "Liberty of conscience, the great and most important article of liberty, is evidently not allowed as it ought to be in this country, not even by the very men who are now making loud complaints of the encroachments upon their own liberties."

At the first meeting of the Continental Congress in 1774, Backus led a delegation arguing that religious freedom was just as important as taxation without representation, but he got very little encouragement from other members of the Massachusetts delegation, including John Adams. John Adams told Backus that a change in the establishment of churches was as likely as "a change in our solar system."

(37:35) John Leland
John Leland (1754-1841) was a Baptist preacher who was inspired by Isaac Backus to fight for religious freedom. He encouraged Baptists to oppose ratification of the new U.S. Constitution because it didn't sufficiently guarantee religious liberty. When James Madison realized that the Baptists could jeopardize the ratification of the Constitution, he met personally with John Leland under an oak tree on Leland's farm. Or at least that's how the story goes. There are now plaques and statues on this spot, though historians can't verify if the meeting ever really happened or where it really happened. Nonetheless, historians know that Madison somehow persuaded Leland to support the Constitution. It is likely that Madison promised he would support a Bill of Rights once the Constitution was ratified.

(42:04–42:29) Music Element
"Suites I No. 4 HWV 429 in E minor II. Allemande"
from Handel: Suites for Keyboard,
performed by Keith Jarrett

(47:40–49:46) Music Element
"The Bird Song"
from A Voyage of Such Nature,
Don Richmond, & Rex Rideout Tom Munch

(48:06) Reading from Waldman's Book
The following reading is excerpted from Waldman's book, Founding Faith: Providence, Politics, and the Birth of Religious Freedom in America:

Freedom of Conscience means not only the freedom to believe but also the freedom to change – not only the right to practice one faith but also the right to a spiritual journey. The Founders didn't just champion religious freedom – they used it. Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, Adams, and Madison never stopped examining – passionately, combatively, wisely – life's deepest questions. Each journey was distinctive, but they ended up in similar places, still deeply spiritual but with an ever shortening list of required religious creeds….

Just a few months before his death, Washington noted that "the ways of Providence are inscrutable, and can not be scanned by short sighted man, whose duty is submission." The most direct end-of-life summary of his spiritual approach came in a letter he wrote on Christmas 1795, four years before his death. "In politics, as in religion, my tenets are few and simple; the leading one of which, and indeed that which embraces most others, is to be honest and just ourselves, and to exact it from others; meddling as little as possible in their affairs where our own are not involved. If this maxim was generally adopted, wars would cease and our swords would soon be converted into reap-hooks and our harvests be more peaceful, abundant and happy."

(49:47–50:15) Music Element
"Sonata No 6 In G Major, BWV 1019 - 5. Allegro"
from Bach: Sonatas for Violin and Harpischord,
performed by Giuliano Carmignola, Andrea Marcon

(50:16–51:25) Music Element
"Quartet No. 2 In F Minor (The Razor): Allegro"
from Joseph Haydn: String Quartets, Op. 55,
performed by Jennifer Ward Clarke, Salomon String Quartet, Peter Holman, Trevor Jones, Micaela Comberti, et al.

(51:26–52:30) Music Element
"Suites I No. 4 HWV 429 in E minor II. Allemande"
from Handel: Suites for Keyboard,
performed by Keith Jarrett